Ah, sf_d

[fisme_nasu]

There's an entry in sf_drama about nice guys and Nice Guys. This reminded me of certain people - several of which you know, swankivy . This rant by divalion  may be helpful for some of my friends to read.

No More Mr. Nice Guy
Permit me to be a bitch for a moment. I've been inspired.

I've known a lot of guys in my time. Many of them have been dear friends; there've been times when my best friends were all male. I have a dad and two brothers and lots of male relatives. I live with three guys. I've dated a lot of guys, including the one I'm still committed to after eleven years. Point being, I've seen a pretty wide spectrum of male personalities and behavior and I even think I have a little insight into guys.

There are two kinds of nice guys in the world. Or, perhaps more accurately, there is a spectrum of niceguyishness.

At one end, are the guys who are just pure and simple good guys, decent people, humanly flawed perhaps but nonetheless likable *and* lovable, caring and smart, who have a lot to offer. Ironically, these guys often do not realize just how wonderful they are and how much they are valued by the people around them, and sometimes they even suffer crippling shyness/low self-esteem. I am fortunate to know, and have known, and to be related to, an unusually high number of guys towards this end of the spectrum.

At the other end are the guys who identify as "nice guys", often quite loudly and defensively, and who believe themselves to be underappreciated martyrs; usually they don't understand why they never get the girl and have at least once in their lives bitterly uttered the phrase "Nice guys finish last" usually in reference to a female who isn't dating them. It is this latter group I shall be addressing.

Now according to the Five Geek Fallacies I am about to be rather un-PC. Specifically I believe I am violating #2, Friends Accept Me As I Am, even though I am not directly addressing anyone but rather ranting into the void.

I have had my fair share of encounters with Nice Guys over the years; and I find that nowadays, meeting people in various online communities, it is even easier to run into them-- but in some ways, also easier to spot them coming.

anyone since 1997 might have something to do with their annoying behaviors or poor sense of humor. In fact, they see no reason to make any extra effort to improve themselves or present themselves well at all-- because they're SO VERY NICE.

Conversely, though, most Nice Guys only fall for a fairly limited range of "hot" chicks. It's because women are all about the status for them, and they are out to prove something to the world. Some of them will deliberately only go after women who are fairly unattainable, if their martyr complex needs some care and feeding.

Nice Guys usually are crap at reading body language and nonverbal cues and usually have serious personal space problems. Women get creeped out because they feel like the guy is literally clinging to them, or is coming on really strong really fast, or doesn't seem to pick up on the fact that they're tensing up or moving away. But since the Nice Guy *knows* he has good intentions, he is deeply insulted by the suggestion that his behavior is unwelcome, creepy, or even threatening. (Whereas a genuine nice guy who misreads a situation is horrified that he might have come across that way and apologizes for it.)

Nice Guys are not patient. This is tricky, again, because sometimes they can *seem* very patient, but in reality they are always chomping at the bit to get into their chosen target's pants. And once they've made a move, they are all about the instant gratification. They demand response NOW. They expect and will pressure or guilt a woman into giving them a chance. It's all or nothing, and if she says no, chances are good the friendship is dead in the water. If it continues, it's almost guaranteed that it's because he doesn't believe she means no, and intends to regroup and try again.

Nice Guys don't actually care what a woman wants, which is one of the keys to identifying a Nice Guy vs. a nice guy, and which runs directly counter to their most deeply held beliefs about themselves. They think that they are great, caring, compassionate partners; usually, they just want a captive audience. They don't have much respect for what her desires and preferences are unless they are for him, because if she wants something different than him, it is attributed to her dysfunction and desire to be treated badly by an asshole. They may spend some time with pick-up books and things that tell them how to get chicks, but they tend to follow the letter of the law and not the spirit. That's why he'll serenade you on a subway platform even though he knows you don't like to call attention to yourself, and then be hurt that you were uncomfortable and embarrassed by the display. He likes to make a big show out of being romantic and considerate, especially when others are watching, but he will still forget to pick up his socks even if you've told him you'd rather have a clean floor than roses delivered to your office.

But the real foolproof way to identify a Nice Guy is to watch how he treats a woman who turns him down romantically. A true-blue Nice Guy invariably will unleash the scorn and contempt and resentment that's been seething under the surface all along, and excoriate the woman he claimed to care about. One of the favored maneuvers is to retreat behind sarcasm, claim that whatever she found unwelcome was "just a joke", and defensively inform her that she has no sense of humor, that she's taking everything way too seriously. Once in a while he'll try to keep being friends-- especially if he thinks there's another chance in it for him-- but he'll let fly with the snarky comments about her, the passive-aggressive "humor" that always points back to her rejection of him, and especially so if she shows interest in anyone else. He's just waiting for that romance to fail so that he can say, "see, she rejects ME when I would've treated her right, but runs after that asshole instead, and now she got hurt. I could've told her that would happen!" And you will never hear a Nice Guy say anything gracious about a guy who dates a woman who rejected him.

The most insidious part of it is the way that Nice Guys turn everything back on the girl, make it all her fault. If she doesn't want to date him-- poor, poor him! What sort of shallow bitch must she be to want a relationship but not with him? Coincidentally, this tactic can sometimes score him a sympathy fuck if he's got a backup girl to run to.

The absolute key difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy is that the nice guy truly likes and respects women and doesn't feel entitled to the attentions of any woman. The Nice Guy pretends to be that, but secretly he has decided that all women suck (usually for the sins of a couple of them), and he doesn't really care about anything so much as propping up his limp ego.

Guys who are small-n nice sometimes wander into Nice Guy territory, which is why I think of this as a spectrum rather than a dichotomy. But those are usually individual bad habits that are easier to fix because they don't have the deep-seated jerkitude behind them.

The good news is that a Nice Guy can change. I have known guys who went for years with a sucky romantic life and who constantly alienated women who finally sat down with a trusted friend and asked to be told honestly what they were doing wrong. More importantly, they listened and tried to change their off-putting behaviors, and I can't think of one who didn't eventually find real love after that.

But you have to want to change.

There's one of those parody motivational posters that says, "The only consistent factor in all your dysfunctional relationships is you." There's a big ole chunk of truth in that. So if you are reading this and you think you might be a Nice Guy and you can't imagine why you aren't in a relationship, you might want to give that a think. Here's a few other friendly tips, free of charge from me to you:

If a woman doesn't find you funny, it might not be because she has no sense of humor. And telling her as much isn't going to make her like you any better.

No woman owes you her attention, her time, her interest, her admiration, or her love, no matter how worthy you think you are of them.

You are not entitled to have a relationship in your life just because you want one.

If you really aren't getting any women, it might be time to ask yourself (or someone you trust to be honest) what YOU could be doing differently.

Hitting on a woman when she's talking to you about her problems is just not cool. Especially if they are relationship problems.

If you can't be friends with a woman who's turned you down, especially if you find yourself getting really angry about it, you have no business being in a relationship until you work out your issues.

Women generally try hard to make themselves appealing to men when they are interested in or going out with them. So take a shower, brush your teeth, put on nice clothes, and for gods' sakes if you are hoping to get laid, wash your dick. Don't expect her to overlook you being slovenly and foul just because you think you have such a sterling personality.

No matter what you think, you will eventually fuck up in a relationship. Deal with it maturely and move on, and don't try to scam chicks out of their current relationships by selling yourself as the perfect partner.

Don't for the love of pete be Mr. Bad Touch. If she just squirmed over a few inches, it's not because she wants you to close the distance.

Flirting without expecting a return on investment is ok. Active seduction when there are clear signs that it is welcome is ok. Trying to constantly slip in "innocent" gropes, innuendo, kisses, or anything else when she's not interested is the adult equivalent of "are we there yet? are we there yet? how about now? how about now?"

Body language and nonverbal cues are not that hard to learn to read.

If she says you're being obnoxious, there is a really good chance that you are being obnoxious. Even if you think you're all kinds of witty and clever.

Likewise, if she says something you did was weird or pushy or unwelcome, mocking her "paranoia" or getting defensive or saying it was "just a joke" doesn't make you right-- it makes you a jerk. Respect how she perceives you. You might think she was oversensitive, but you have no idea what it is like to be a woman in a world where we have to deal with unwelcome aggressive attention all the time. Treat her feelings as valid even if you "didn't mean it that way". She will respect you more for it.

We can sense your hostility. It is a turnoff.

Bring something to the table besides basic human decency. I'm not talking about money. Be responsible for yourself, your life, and your happiness. Have good things in your life that you want to share with a wonderful woman, rather than expecting her to fill the holes in your life. Even if you're a nice loser, you're still a loser.

There now. I feel better. Maybe sometime soon I will write about psycho girlfriends and how they expect you to anticipate the things they aren't going to bother to talk to you about and how annoying it is when bi chicks treat other bi chicks like nothing more than sex toys or only get bi when it reaches, as Del so aptly put it, "Girlkissing O'Clock". But I will need to muster some inspiration for that post.

Thank you for listening, and best of luck in your future.